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	<title>Comments on: Do waterfalls play chess? and other stories</title>
	<atom:link href="http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/</link>
	<description>Wannabe computer scientist</description>
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		<title>By: Antonio E. Porreca</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-96</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antonio E. Porreca]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2011 07:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-96</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-95&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;anon&lt;/a&gt;, that’s exactly my reasoning.

(Also, I love how you define “not having sufficient resources in our universe” as a “circumstantial engineering problem”. :-D)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-95" rel="nofollow">anon</a>, that’s exactly my reasoning.</p>
<p>(Also, I love how you define “not having sufficient resources in our universe” as a “circumstantial engineering problem”. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-95</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2011 02:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-95</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The way I see it, the whole point of the big table solution is to show that complexity theory gives interesting results for philosophy questions.

If a table is possible in the math sense, and the only thing that prevents us from building one is the circumstantial engineering problem that our universe has no sufficient resources, then the only thing preventing us from solving the Turing test is a complexity-theoretical issue.  Therefore complexity theory is cool.  QED.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way I see it, the whole point of the big table solution is to show that complexity theory gives interesting results for philosophy questions.</p>
<p>If a table is possible in the math sense, and the only thing that prevents us from building one is the circumstantial engineering problem that our universe has no sufficient resources, then the only thing preventing us from solving the Turing test is a complexity-theoretical issue.  Therefore complexity theory is cool.  QED.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh J</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-74</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Josh J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-74</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jochen: It&#039;s an inherent limitation of any test that takes place over a finite-capacity communication channel for a finite amount of time. That is to say, any test that conforms to the laws of physics as we currently understand them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jochen: It&#8217;s an inherent limitation of any test that takes place over a finite-capacity communication channel for a finite amount of time. That is to say, any test that conforms to the laws of physics as we currently understand them.</p>
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		<title>By: Jochen</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-73</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jochen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-73</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[WRT to the &#039;larger table&#039; issue, it&#039;s more of an &#039;in-principle&#039;-thing for me, rather than relating to &#039;actual&#039; Turing tests one might in practice perform, perhaps overly so. Consider a Turing test analogue to examine a program for whether it computes prime numbers by observing the output: obviously, a finite, and quite short (to the point of realizability in practice) table would suffice to output enough prime numbers to convince a tester subject to any kind of reasonable bounds that the program indeed does generate prime numbers. But there&#039;s still a difference between a program that merely outputs primes from some pre-defined table and a program that actually computes primes. Perhaps this should rather be read as an inherent limitation of the Turing test, though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WRT to the &#8216;larger table&#8217; issue, it&#8217;s more of an &#8216;in-principle&#8217;-thing for me, rather than relating to &#8216;actual&#8217; Turing tests one might in practice perform, perhaps overly so. Consider a Turing test analogue to examine a program for whether it computes prime numbers by observing the output: obviously, a finite, and quite short (to the point of realizability in practice) table would suffice to output enough prime numbers to convince a tester subject to any kind of reasonable bounds that the program indeed does generate prime numbers. But there&#8217;s still a difference between a program that merely outputs primes from some pre-defined table and a program that actually computes primes. Perhaps this should rather be read as an inherent limitation of the Turing test, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Antonio E. Porreca</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-71</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antonio E. Porreca]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-71</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Josh’s replies are essentially the ones I would have written.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-69&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jochen&lt;/a&gt;’s observations are quite interesting. I agree that we’re definitely talking about something analogous to the “reductions that do all the work”; indeed, what’s missing here is exactly the complexity-theoretic analysis of the question, as the problem is essentially solved from a purely computability-theoretic standpoint.

I don’t think the question related to machines having tables of different sizes is relevant, though. It is usually assumed that a Turing test session has a pre-defined duration, so beyond a certain size that won’t make a difference any more. (At the moment I don’t recall if the issue of duration is addressed by Turing’s original paper.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Josh’s replies are essentially the ones I would have written.</p>
<p><a href="http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-69" rel="nofollow">Jochen</a>’s observations are quite interesting. I agree that we’re definitely talking about something analogous to the “reductions that do all the work”; indeed, what’s missing here is exactly the complexity-theoretic analysis of the question, as the problem is essentially solved from a purely computability-theoretic standpoint.</p>
<p>I don’t think the question related to machines having tables of different sizes is relevant, though. It is usually assumed that a Turing test session has a pre-defined duration, so beyond a certain size that won’t make a difference any more. (At the moment I don’t recall if the issue of duration is addressed by Turing’s original paper.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jochen</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jochen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-69</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s also the problem that if we admit lookup-table programs as a valid solution to the Turing test, then we&#039;ll create the somewhat paradoxical situation that there exist machines that pass the Turing test (are &#039;Turing-conscious&#039;) according to our best judgement, but that don&#039;t judge each other Turing-conscious -- one machine with resources, i.e lookup-table, greater than another will exhaust the other&#039;s, and thus see it as merely putting up a show. This makes the property of being &#039;Turing-conscious&#039; uncomfortably anthropocentric, to me.

Then there&#039;s the issue of how these lookup-tables are created in the first place. It&#039;s easy to create a table of all possible conversations of a certain length, but to pick out the &#039;meaningful&#039; ones, which will be a small subset, the majority being largely gibberish, additional input is needed -- so in Turing-testing these machines, who is really tested: the machine itself, or who- (or what-)ever supplied the additional input to weed out nonsensical dialogue histories? This seems somehow akin to one of those &#039;reductions that do all the work&#039;. 

In analogy, one could put the requisite lookup table into a book that follows the style of these &#039;choose your own adventure&#039;-books; a &#039;reader&#039; thinks of a certain dialogue part, then looks up the next one in the book. Should one consider the book to be &#039;Turing-conscious&#039;, i.e to pass the Turing test?

Perhaps one should consider a &#039;strong&#039; Turing test somewhat like the following: an entity is judged to pass the strong Turing test if it passes the Turing test as administered by any other entity that passes the Turing test. This would exclude lookup-table machines, since there always exists another lookup-table machine with a larger lookup table that exhausts the first one&#039;s table, and thus, which could administer a Turing test the first lookup machine could not pass, but would leave humans in the running (barring unfortunate practical issues such as age and death).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s also the problem that if we admit lookup-table programs as a valid solution to the Turing test, then we&#8217;ll create the somewhat paradoxical situation that there exist machines that pass the Turing test (are &#8216;Turing-conscious&#8217;) according to our best judgement, but that don&#8217;t judge each other Turing-conscious &#8212; one machine with resources, i.e lookup-table, greater than another will exhaust the other&#8217;s, and thus see it as merely putting up a show. This makes the property of being &#8216;Turing-conscious&#8217; uncomfortably anthropocentric, to me.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s the issue of how these lookup-tables are created in the first place. It&#8217;s easy to create a table of all possible conversations of a certain length, but to pick out the &#8216;meaningful&#8217; ones, which will be a small subset, the majority being largely gibberish, additional input is needed &#8212; so in Turing-testing these machines, who is really tested: the machine itself, or who- (or what-)ever supplied the additional input to weed out nonsensical dialogue histories? This seems somehow akin to one of those &#8216;reductions that do all the work&#8217;. </p>
<p>In analogy, one could put the requisite lookup table into a book that follows the style of these &#8216;choose your own adventure&#8217;-books; a &#8216;reader&#8217; thinks of a certain dialogue part, then looks up the next one in the book. Should one consider the book to be &#8216;Turing-conscious&#8217;, i.e to pass the Turing test?</p>
<p>Perhaps one should consider a &#8216;strong&#8217; Turing test somewhat like the following: an entity is judged to pass the strong Turing test if it passes the Turing test as administered by any other entity that passes the Turing test. This would exclude lookup-table machines, since there always exists another lookup-table machine with a larger lookup table that exhausts the first one&#8217;s table, and thus, which could administer a Turing test the first lookup machine could not pass, but would leave humans in the running (barring unfortunate practical issues such as age and death).</p>
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		<title>By: Josh J</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Josh J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-68</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Obviously, the Halting problem is to determine whether an arbitrary Turing machine halts, and Turing machines are defined to have access to a tape that is unbounded in one direction. I admit the point that &quot;the Turing test can be passed by a large hash&quot; does sound obvious in retrospect, but it wasn&#039;t obvious to me until I heard the argument, and I know Scott wasn&#039;t writing his paper just for me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously, the Halting problem is to determine whether an arbitrary Turing machine halts, and Turing machines are defined to have access to a tape that is unbounded in one direction. I admit the point that &#8220;the Turing test can be passed by a large hash&#8221; does sound obvious in retrospect, but it wasn&#8217;t obvious to me until I heard the argument, and I know Scott wasn&#8217;t writing his paper just for me.</p>
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		<title>By: me</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-67</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[me]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 13:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-67</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You realize that the halting problem is quite solvable if you limit yourself to a set number of states?  The proof that the Halting problem is unsolvable depends on having an infinite space.

The argument that the Turing test can be passed by a large hash is merely an assertion that the problem is finite in nature.  If that is a surprise, well, okay.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You realize that the halting problem is quite solvable if you limit yourself to a set number of states?  The proof that the Halting problem is unsolvable depends on having an infinite space.</p>
<p>The argument that the Turing test can be passed by a large hash is merely an assertion that the problem is finite in nature.  If that is a surprise, well, okay.</p>
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		<title>By: True Names &#124; FavStocks</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[True Names &#124; FavStocks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 10:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-65</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Do waterfalls play chess? and other stories: After a brief introduction to complexity theory (Section 2), Aaronson turns his attention to one of the main cornerstones of this field, which is also one the points that are usually criticised: the relevance of polynomial time, as opposed to exponential time. Here he argues that this distinction is at least as interesting as the distinction between computable and uncomputable. Section 3.3 contains an interesting question that can be answered using a complexity-theoretic argument: why would we call 243112609 − 1 (together with a proof of its primality) a “known” prime, while “the first prime large than 243112609 − 1” feels somehow “unknown”? [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Do waterfalls play chess? and other stories: After a brief introduction to complexity theory (Section 2), Aaronson turns his attention to one of the main cornerstones of this field, which is also one the points that are usually criticised: the relevance of polynomial time, as opposed to exponential time. Here he argues that this distinction is at least as interesting as the distinction between computable and uncomputable. Section 3.3 contains an interesting question that can be answered using a complexity-theoretic argument: why would we call 243112609 − 1 (together with a proof of its primality) a “known” prime, while “the first prime large than 243112609 − 1” feels somehow “unknown”? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Josh J</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Josh J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 06:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-64</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@I: A lookup table doesn&#039;t require &quot;infinite resources&quot;, but yes, the question of whether it&#039;s logically impossible to build a superintelligent machine is now &quot;uninteresting&quot; to the extent that it has been answered, by the argument Aaronson puts forth, if not by others. &quot;Our best solution requires too many resources&quot; is unequivocally an advance over &quot;the problem may be (like the Halting problem) impossible to solve, in principle&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@I: A lookup table doesn&#8217;t require &#8220;infinite resources&#8221;, but yes, the question of whether it&#8217;s logically impossible to build a superintelligent machine is now &#8220;uninteresting&#8221; to the extent that it has been answered, by the argument Aaronson puts forth, if not by others. &#8220;Our best solution requires too many resources&#8221; is unequivocally an advance over &#8220;the problem may be (like the Halting problem) impossible to solve, in principle&#8221;.</p>
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