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	<title>Comments for Antonio E. Porreca</title>
	<atom:link href="http://aeporreca.org/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://aeporreca.org</link>
	<description>Wannabe computer scientist</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 18 Feb 2012 13:46:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Nash beats Gödel: On the history of complexity and cryptography by Antonio E. Porreca</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2012/02/17/nash-beats-godel/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antonio E. Porreca]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Feb 2012 13:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=874#comment-102</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with both of you. Who knows what the state of cryptography would be had the contents of those letters been made public in 1955…]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with both of you. Who knows what the state of cryptography would be had the contents of those letters been made public in 1955…</p>
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		<title>Comment on Nash beats Gödel: On the history of complexity and cryptography by Luigi Acerbi</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2012/02/17/nash-beats-godel/#comment-101</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Luigi Acerbi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Feb 2012 13:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=874#comment-101</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Really nice... good material for a &#039;what if&#039; story! (I like the idea of alternative histories in math and physics).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really nice&#8230; good material for a &#8216;what if&#8217; story! (I like the idea of alternative histories in math and physics).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Nash beats Gödel: On the history of complexity and cryptography by Alessandro Bahgat</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2012/02/17/nash-beats-godel/#comment-100</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alessandro Bahgat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 21:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=874#comment-100</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for sharing the story!
I find the last paragraph both intriguing and scary, I was just wondering whether the guys responsible for the archives in NSA (in particular) really appreciate the value of all the material they possess.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for sharing the story!<br />
I find the last paragraph both intriguing and scary, I was just wondering whether the guys responsible for the archives in NSA (in particular) really appreciate the value of all the material they possess.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do waterfalls play chess? and other stories by Antonio E. Porreca</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-96</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antonio E. Porreca]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2011 07:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-96</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-95&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;anon&lt;/a&gt;, that’s exactly my reasoning.

(Also, I love how you define “not having sufficient resources in our universe” as a “circumstantial engineering problem”. :-D)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-95" rel="nofollow">anon</a>, that’s exactly my reasoning.</p>
<p>(Also, I love how you define “not having sufficient resources in our universe” as a “circumstantial engineering problem”. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do waterfalls play chess? and other stories by anon</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-95</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2011 02:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-95</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The way I see it, the whole point of the big table solution is to show that complexity theory gives interesting results for philosophy questions.

If a table is possible in the math sense, and the only thing that prevents us from building one is the circumstantial engineering problem that our universe has no sufficient resources, then the only thing preventing us from solving the Turing test is a complexity-theoretical issue.  Therefore complexity theory is cool.  QED.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way I see it, the whole point of the big table solution is to show that complexity theory gives interesting results for philosophy questions.</p>
<p>If a table is possible in the math sense, and the only thing that prevents us from building one is the circumstantial engineering problem that our universe has no sufficient resources, then the only thing preventing us from solving the Turing test is a complexity-theoretical issue.  Therefore complexity theory is cool.  QED.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do waterfalls play chess? and other stories by Josh J</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-74</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Josh J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-74</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jochen: It&#039;s an inherent limitation of any test that takes place over a finite-capacity communication channel for a finite amount of time. That is to say, any test that conforms to the laws of physics as we currently understand them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jochen: It&#8217;s an inherent limitation of any test that takes place over a finite-capacity communication channel for a finite amount of time. That is to say, any test that conforms to the laws of physics as we currently understand them.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do waterfalls play chess? and other stories by Jochen</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-73</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jochen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-73</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[WRT to the &#039;larger table&#039; issue, it&#039;s more of an &#039;in-principle&#039;-thing for me, rather than relating to &#039;actual&#039; Turing tests one might in practice perform, perhaps overly so. Consider a Turing test analogue to examine a program for whether it computes prime numbers by observing the output: obviously, a finite, and quite short (to the point of realizability in practice) table would suffice to output enough prime numbers to convince a tester subject to any kind of reasonable bounds that the program indeed does generate prime numbers. But there&#039;s still a difference between a program that merely outputs primes from some pre-defined table and a program that actually computes primes. Perhaps this should rather be read as an inherent limitation of the Turing test, though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WRT to the &#8216;larger table&#8217; issue, it&#8217;s more of an &#8216;in-principle&#8217;-thing for me, rather than relating to &#8216;actual&#8217; Turing tests one might in practice perform, perhaps overly so. Consider a Turing test analogue to examine a program for whether it computes prime numbers by observing the output: obviously, a finite, and quite short (to the point of realizability in practice) table would suffice to output enough prime numbers to convince a tester subject to any kind of reasonable bounds that the program indeed does generate prime numbers. But there&#8217;s still a difference between a program that merely outputs primes from some pre-defined table and a program that actually computes primes. Perhaps this should rather be read as an inherent limitation of the Turing test, though.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do waterfalls play chess? and other stories by Antonio E. Porreca</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-71</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antonio E. Porreca]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-71</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Josh’s replies are essentially the ones I would have written.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-69&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jochen&lt;/a&gt;’s observations are quite interesting. I agree that we’re definitely talking about something analogous to the “reductions that do all the work”; indeed, what’s missing here is exactly the complexity-theoretic analysis of the question, as the problem is essentially solved from a purely computability-theoretic standpoint.

I don’t think the question related to machines having tables of different sizes is relevant, though. It is usually assumed that a Turing test session has a pre-defined duration, so beyond a certain size that won’t make a difference any more. (At the moment I don’t recall if the issue of duration is addressed by Turing’s original paper.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Josh’s replies are essentially the ones I would have written.</p>
<p><a href="http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-69" rel="nofollow">Jochen</a>’s observations are quite interesting. I agree that we’re definitely talking about something analogous to the “reductions that do all the work”; indeed, what’s missing here is exactly the complexity-theoretic analysis of the question, as the problem is essentially solved from a purely computability-theoretic standpoint.</p>
<p>I don’t think the question related to machines having tables of different sizes is relevant, though. It is usually assumed that a Turing test session has a pre-defined duration, so beyond a certain size that won’t make a difference any more. (At the moment I don’t recall if the issue of duration is addressed by Turing’s original paper.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do waterfalls play chess? and other stories by Jochen</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jochen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-69</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s also the problem that if we admit lookup-table programs as a valid solution to the Turing test, then we&#039;ll create the somewhat paradoxical situation that there exist machines that pass the Turing test (are &#039;Turing-conscious&#039;) according to our best judgement, but that don&#039;t judge each other Turing-conscious -- one machine with resources, i.e lookup-table, greater than another will exhaust the other&#039;s, and thus see it as merely putting up a show. This makes the property of being &#039;Turing-conscious&#039; uncomfortably anthropocentric, to me.

Then there&#039;s the issue of how these lookup-tables are created in the first place. It&#039;s easy to create a table of all possible conversations of a certain length, but to pick out the &#039;meaningful&#039; ones, which will be a small subset, the majority being largely gibberish, additional input is needed -- so in Turing-testing these machines, who is really tested: the machine itself, or who- (or what-)ever supplied the additional input to weed out nonsensical dialogue histories? This seems somehow akin to one of those &#039;reductions that do all the work&#039;. 

In analogy, one could put the requisite lookup table into a book that follows the style of these &#039;choose your own adventure&#039;-books; a &#039;reader&#039; thinks of a certain dialogue part, then looks up the next one in the book. Should one consider the book to be &#039;Turing-conscious&#039;, i.e to pass the Turing test?

Perhaps one should consider a &#039;strong&#039; Turing test somewhat like the following: an entity is judged to pass the strong Turing test if it passes the Turing test as administered by any other entity that passes the Turing test. This would exclude lookup-table machines, since there always exists another lookup-table machine with a larger lookup table that exhausts the first one&#039;s table, and thus, which could administer a Turing test the first lookup machine could not pass, but would leave humans in the running (barring unfortunate practical issues such as age and death).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s also the problem that if we admit lookup-table programs as a valid solution to the Turing test, then we&#8217;ll create the somewhat paradoxical situation that there exist machines that pass the Turing test (are &#8216;Turing-conscious&#8217;) according to our best judgement, but that don&#8217;t judge each other Turing-conscious &#8212; one machine with resources, i.e lookup-table, greater than another will exhaust the other&#8217;s, and thus see it as merely putting up a show. This makes the property of being &#8216;Turing-conscious&#8217; uncomfortably anthropocentric, to me.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s the issue of how these lookup-tables are created in the first place. It&#8217;s easy to create a table of all possible conversations of a certain length, but to pick out the &#8216;meaningful&#8217; ones, which will be a small subset, the majority being largely gibberish, additional input is needed &#8212; so in Turing-testing these machines, who is really tested: the machine itself, or who- (or what-)ever supplied the additional input to weed out nonsensical dialogue histories? This seems somehow akin to one of those &#8216;reductions that do all the work&#8217;. </p>
<p>In analogy, one could put the requisite lookup table into a book that follows the style of these &#8216;choose your own adventure&#8217;-books; a &#8216;reader&#8217; thinks of a certain dialogue part, then looks up the next one in the book. Should one consider the book to be &#8216;Turing-conscious&#8217;, i.e to pass the Turing test?</p>
<p>Perhaps one should consider a &#8216;strong&#8217; Turing test somewhat like the following: an entity is judged to pass the strong Turing test if it passes the Turing test as administered by any other entity that passes the Turing test. This would exclude lookup-table machines, since there always exists another lookup-table machine with a larger lookup table that exhausts the first one&#8217;s table, and thus, which could administer a Turing test the first lookup machine could not pass, but would leave humans in the running (barring unfortunate practical issues such as age and death).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do waterfalls play chess? and other stories by Josh J</title>
		<link>http://aeporreca.org/2011/08/13/do-waterfalls-play-chess/#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Josh J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aeporreca.org/?p=827#comment-68</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Obviously, the Halting problem is to determine whether an arbitrary Turing machine halts, and Turing machines are defined to have access to a tape that is unbounded in one direction. I admit the point that &quot;the Turing test can be passed by a large hash&quot; does sound obvious in retrospect, but it wasn&#039;t obvious to me until I heard the argument, and I know Scott wasn&#039;t writing his paper just for me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously, the Halting problem is to determine whether an arbitrary Turing machine halts, and Turing machines are defined to have access to a tape that is unbounded in one direction. I admit the point that &#8220;the Turing test can be passed by a large hash&#8221; does sound obvious in retrospect, but it wasn&#8217;t obvious to me until I heard the argument, and I know Scott wasn&#8217;t writing his paper just for me.</p>
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